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The essays about the manosphere documentary helped me put together something that's been knocking about in my head for a bit: I think the reason Andrew Tate doesn't get talked about much in this documentary or in a lot of discussion of the current crop of manosphere guys is that he's too obviously threatening, and that ruins this odd line of attack that's developed that's focused on discrediting them on their own terms by trying to make them look like silly children.

The focus on whether they have unresolved childhood trauma, and the constant need to involve their mums as much as possible, strikes me as an attempt to almost accept their framing for what a high status man should be then judge them harshly against it. No mainstream commentator would ever say it in these words, but the impression I get is a sort of "haha look at this beta cuck, he thinks he's a threatening alpha wolf but actually he's a traumatised little boy who is still close with his mum, awww lil' boy did daddy not really like you?"

You can't make that work with Andrew Tate, because he's just so obviously an actual threat, so it would come off as really insensitive. Thing is, I rather suspect plenty of these guys have done plenty of really bad Tate-like stuff. I'm not levelling specific accusations, but they lionise him as a figure worth emulating so it wouldn't shock me if they had, well, emulated him in practice as well as theory in at least some cases.

Even if they are the way they are because of childhood trauma (which might be at least be part of the story, though I doubt it’s as totalising as this narrative likes to make out) that hardly suggests they aren’t doing or couldn’t do real harm. So you get this bizarre disconnect where people who do actually seem to me to be quite threatening get treated as sort of objects of comedic pity. It’s as if their detractors can’t bring themselves to admit they might actually be dangerous, because that would be giving them too much credit!

I think it stems from the growing mainstream reliance on a “legitimacy / credibility / seriousness” quality as the prime morally relevant axis. Remember “adults in the room”? I get the sense that a lot of these people see “you are trivial / childish / unserious” as about the most devastating burn they can muster. In these situations, I think it actually leads to their accepting, unstated, a lot of the macho-poser might-makes-right morality of the very people they criticise, and that’s why it ties them in such crazy knots.

This is perhaps a reach, but I suspect the same problem is a good part of why the mainstream narrative is struggling to make any serious engagement with AI risk: They feel uncomfortable admitting that anything made by tech bros could be important enough to do major harm. That’s why you see people coming up with crazy inside-out takes like that people raising the alarm about catastrophic risks from AI are actually paid agents of the AI companies themselves, hyping their products.

You know, like how tobacco companies paid people to say smoking causes cancer, and oil companies paid people to say burning fossil fuels causes climate change :p The possibility of doing real harm becomes a mantle they couldn’t possibly grant to their enemies, because that would be tantamount to admitting they matter in some way, and that would cut against their casting of irrelevance and triviality as the ultimate failing.

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